Monday, September 21, 1998
CLINTON: Yes, that would constitute contact. I think that would, if it were direct contact, I believe it would. I -- maybe I should read it again, just to make sure.
(PAUSE)
This basically says if there was any direct contact with an intent to arouse or gratify, if that was the intent of the contact, then that would fall within the definition. That's correct.
QUESTION: So touching in your view then and now -- the person being deposed touching or kissing the breast of another person would fall within the definition?
CLINTON: That's correct, sir.
QUESTION: And you testified that you didn't have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky in the Jones deposition, under that definition, correct?
CLINTON: That's correct, sir.
QUESTION: If the person being deposed touched the genitalia of another person, would that be in -- with the intent to arouse the sexual desire, arouse or gratify, as defined in definition one, would that be, under your understanding, then and now, sexual relations?
CLINTON: Yes, sir.
QUESTION: Yes, it would?
CLINTON: Yes, it would if you had a direct contact with any of these places in the body, if you had direct contact with intent to arouse or gratify, that would fall within the definition.
QUESTION: So you didn't do any of those three things with Monica Lewinsky?
CLINTON: You are free to infer that my testimony is that I did not have sexual relations as I understood this term to be defined.
QUESTION: Including touching her breast, kissing her breast or touching her genitalia?
CLINTON: That's correct.
QUESTION: Would you agree with me that the -- insertion of an object into the genitalia of another person with the desire to gratify sexually would fit within the definition you used in the Jones case as sexual relations?
CLINTON: There is nothing here about that, is there? I don't know that I ever thought about that one way or the other.
QUESTION: The question is, under the definition as you understood it then, under the definition as you understand it now --pardon me, just a minute.
Pardon me, Mr. President.
Deposition -- Exhibit 1, question 1 under the -- in the Jones case, definition of sexual relations.
QUESTION: Do you have that before you, Mr. President?
CLINTON: I do, sir. I have got it right here. I'm looking at it.
QUESTION: As you understood the definition then and as you understood it now, would it include sticking an object into the genitalia of another person in order to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person? Would it constitute, in other words, contact with the genitalia? If an object...
CLINTON: I don't know the answer to that. I suppose you could argue that since Section 2, Paragraph 2 was eliminated, and Paragraph 2 actually dealt with the object issue, that perhaps whoever wrote this didn't intend for Paragraph 1 to cover an object and basically meant direct contact.
So if I were asked -- I've not been asked this question before, but I guess that's the way I would read it.
QUESTION: If it -- that it would not be covered, that activity would not be covered.
CLINTON: That's right. If the activity you just mentioned would be covered in number two and number two was stricken, I think you can infer logically that Paragraph 1 was not intended to cover. But as I said, I've not been asked this before. I'm just doing the best I can here.
QUESTION: Well, if someone were to hold or a judge were to hold that you're incorrect, and that definition one does include the hypo I've given to you -- because we're talking in hypos so that you don't -- under your request here -- if someone were to tell you or rule that you're wrong, that the insertion of an object into somebody else's genitalia with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person is within definition one...
KENDALL: Mr. Wisenberg, excuse me. I have not objected heretofore to any question you've asked. I must tell you, I cannot understand that question. I think it's improper, and if the witness can understand it, he may answer it.
QUESTION: I'll be happy to rephrase it. If you're wrong and it's within definition one, did you engage in sexual relations, under the definition, with Monica Lewinsky?
CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, I have said all along that I would say what I thought it meant, and you could infer that I didn't. This is an unusual question, but it's a slippery slope.
I -- we can -- I have tried to deal with some very delicate areas here, and in one case, I've given you a very forthright answer about what I thought was not within here.
All I can tell you is whatever I thought was covered -- and I thought about this carefully. And let me just point out, this was uncomfortable for me. I had to acknowledge, because of this definition, that under this definition I had actually had sexual relations once with Gennifer Flowers, a person who had spread all kinds ridiculous, dishonest, exaggerated stories about me for money. And I knew when I did that it would be leaked. It was. And I was embarrassed. But I did it.
So I tried to read this carefully. I can tell you what I thought it covered. And I can tell you that I do not believe I did anything that I thought was covered by this.
QUESTION: As I understand your testimony, Mr. President, touching somebody's breast with the intent to arouse, with the intent to arouse or gratify sexual desire of any person, is covered. Kissing the breast is covered. Touching the genitalia is covered, correct?
KENDALL: In fairness, the witness said (ph) directly in each one of those cases.
QUESTION: Directly is covered, correct?
CLINTON: I believe it is. Yes, sir.
QUESTION: Oral sex, in your view, is not covered, correct?
CLINTON: If performed on the deponent.
QUESTION: Is not covered, correct?
CLINTON: That's my reading of this number one.
QUESTION: And you're declining to answer the hypothetical about insertion of an object. I need to inform you, Mr. President -- but we'll go on, at least for now -- but I need to inform you that the grand jury will consider your not answering the questions more directly in their determination of whether or not they're going to issue another subpoena.
Let me switch the topic and talk to you about John Podesta and some of the other aides you met with and spoke to after this story became public on January 21st, 1998, the day of The Washington Post story.
Do you recall meeting with him around January 23rd, 1998, Friday a.m. in your study, two days after The Washington Post story, and extremely explicitly telling him that you didn't have -- engage in any kind of sex in any way, shape or form with Monica Lewinsky, including oral sex?
CLINTON: I meet with John Podesta almost every day. I meet with a number of people. And the only thing I -- what happened in the couple of days after what you did was revealed is a blizzard to me.
The only thing I recall is that I met with certain people, and a few of them I said I didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky, or I didn't have an affair with her or something like that. I had a very careful thing. I said -- and I tried not to say anything else.
And I -- it might be that John Podesta was one of them. But I do not remember the specific meeting about which you asked or the specific comments to which you referred.
QUESTION: You don't remember...
CLINTON: Seven months ago, I'd have no way to remember, no.
QUESTION: You don't remember denying any kind of sex in any way, shape or form with him, including oral sex, correct?
CLINTON: I remember that I issued a number of denials to people that I thought needed to hear them, but I tried to be careful and to be accurate in them. And I do not remember what I said to John Podesta.
QUESTION: Surely, if you told him that, that would be a falsehood, correct?
CLINTON: Oh, I didn't say that, sir. I didn't say that at all. That is not covered by the definition, and I did not address it in my statement.
QUESTION: Well, let me ask you then. If you told him -- perhaps he thought it was covered. I don't know. But if you told him, if you denied to him sex in any way, shape or form -- kind of similar to what Mr. Bennett did at the deposition, including oral sex -- wouldn't that have been a falsehood?
CLINTON: Now, Mr. Wisenberg, I told you, in response to a grand jury's question -- you asked me did I believe that oral sex performed on the person who was being deposed was covered by that definition. And I said: No. I don't believe it's covered by the definition. I said you were free to conclude that I did not do things that I believe were covered by the definition.
And you've asked me a number of questions, and I have acknowledged things that I believe are covered by the definition.
Since that was not covered by the definition, I want to fall back on my statement.
Look, I'm not trying to be evasive here. I'm trying to protect my privacy, my family's privacy, and I'm trying to stick to what the deposition was about.
If the deposition wasn't about this and didn't cover it, then I don't believe that I should be required to go beyond my statement.
QUESTION: Mr. President, it's not our intent to embarrass you, but since we have to look, among other things, at obstruction of justice, questions of obstruction of justice and perjury, the answer to some of these delicate and unfortunate questions are absolutely required.
And that is the purpose that we have to ask them for.
CLINTON: That's not...
QUESTION: I'm unaware of any...
CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, with respect, you don't need to know the answer for that if the answer -- no matter what the answer is --wouldn't constitute perjury because it wasn't sexual relations as defined by the judge.
The only reason you need to know that is for some other reason. It couldn't have anything to do with perjury.
QUESTION: Mr. President, one of the -- one of the nice things about -- one of the normal things about an investigation and a grand jury investigation is if the grand jurors and the prosecutors get to ask the questions unless they're improper and unless there's a legal basis.
As I understand from your answers, there's no legal basis for which you decline to answer these questions.
And I'll ask you again to answer the question. I'm unaware of any legal basis for you not to. If you told the...
KENDALL: Well, if you just -- could you just restate the question, please?
QUESTION: The question is if you told John Podesta two days after the story broke something to this effect -- that you didn't have any kind of sex in any way, shape or form, including oral sex, with Ms. Lewinsky. Were you telling him the truth?
CLINTON: And let me say again, with respect, this is an indirect way to try to get me to testify to questions that have no bearing on whether I committed perjury. You apparently agree that it has no bearing on whether...
QUESTION: No, I don't. I don't agree.
CLINTON: ... I committed perjury.
QUESTION: Mr. President, I'm sorry, with respect, I don't agree with that. I'm not going to argue with you about it. I just am going to ask you again -- in fact, direct you -- to answer the question.
CLINTON: I'm not going to answer that question because I believe it's a question about conduct that, whatever the answer to it is, would -- does not bear on the perjury because oral sex performed on the deponent under this definition is not sexual relations. It is not covered by this definition.
KENDALL: The witness is not declining to tell you anything he said to John Podesta.
QUESTION: The -- you denied -- the witness is not declining to tell me anything. Did you deny oral sex in any way, shape or form to John Podesta?
CLINTON: I told you so before and I will say again -- in the aftermath of this story breaking, and what was told about it, the next two days, the next three days are just a blur to me. I don't remember to whom I talked, when I talked to them or what I said.
QUESTION: So you're not declining to answer. You just don't remember.
CLINTON: I honestly don't remember -- no. I'm not saying that anybody who had a contrary memory is wrong. I do not remember.
QUESTION: Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to the following people -- Harry Thomason, Erskine Bowles, Harold Ickes, Mr. Podesta, Mr. Blumenthal, Mr. Jordan, Ms. Betty Currie?
Continued...
