Monday, September 21, 1998
QUESTION: Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to those individuals?
CLINTON: I recall telling a number of those people that I didn't have -- either I didn't have an affair with Monica Lewinsky or I didn't have sex with her. And I believe, sir, that you will have to ask them what they thought. But I was using those terms in the normal way people use them.
You will have to ask them what they thought I was saying.
QUESTION: If they testify that you denied a sexual relations --or relationship with Monica Lewinsky, or if they told us that you denied that, do you have any reason to doubt, in the days after the story broke? Do you have any reason to doubt?
CLINTON: No. The -- let me say this: It's no secret to anybody that I hoped that this relationship would never become public. It's a matter of fact that it had been many, many months since there had anything improper about it in terms of improper contact.
QUESTION: Did you...
CLINTON: I really...
QUESTION: ... deny it to them or not, Mr. President?
CLINTON: Let me finish. So what -- I did not want to mislead my friends, but I wanted to find language where I could say that. I also, frankly, did not want to turn any of them into witnesses, because -- and sure enough, they all became witnesses.
QUESTION: Well, you knew they were...
CLINTON: And so...
QUESTION: ... going to be witnesses, didn't you?
CLINTON: And so I said to them things that were true about this relationship. That I used -- in the language I used, I said there is nothing going on between us. That was true. I said I have not had sex with her, as I define it. That was true.
And that I hoped that I would never have to be here on this day giving this testimony? Of course. But I also didn't want to do anything to complicate this matter further.
So I said things that were true. They may have been misleading, and if they were, I will have take responsibility for it, and I'm sorry.
QUESTION: They may have been misleading, sir, and you knew, though, after January 21st, when The Post article broke and said that Judge Starr was looking into this, you knew that they might be witnesses. You knew that they might be called into a grand jury, didn't you?
CLINTON: I think I was quite careful what I said after that. I may have said something to all of these people to that effect, but I -- I also -- whenever anybody asks me any details, I said, look, I don't want you to be a witness, or I turn you into a witness, or give you information that could get you in trouble. I just wouldn't talk. I, by and large, didn't talk to people about this.
QUESTION: If all of these people -- let's leave out Mrs. Currie for a minute. Vernon Jordan, Sid Blumenthal, John Podesta, Harold Ickes, Erskine Bowles, Harry Thomason -- after the story broke, after Judge Starr's involvement was known on January 21st, it said that you denied a sexual relationship with them? Are you denying that?
CLINTON: No. I'm just telling...
QUESTION: When you told us that you...
CLINTON: ... you what I meant by it. I told you what I meant by it when we (ph) started this deposition.
QUESTION: You told us now that you were being careful, but that it might have been misleading, is that correct?
CLINTON: It might have been. Since we have seen this four-year, $40 million investigation come down to parsing the definition of sex, I think it might have been. I don't think at the time that I thought that's what this was going to be about.
In fact, if you looked at the headlines at the time -- even you mentioned that Post story. All the headlines were -- and all the talking -- the people who talked about this, including a lot who had been quite sympathetic to your operation, said, well, this is not really a story about sex or this is a story about subordination of perjury and these talking points and all this other stuff.
So I -- what I was trying to do was to give them something they could -- that would be true, even if misleading, in the context of this deposition, and keep them out of trouble, and let's deal -- and deal with the -- what I thought was the almost ludicrous suggestion that I had urged someone to lie or tried to suborn perjury in other ways.
QUESTION: I want to go over some questions again. I don't think you're going to answer them (OFF-MIKE), and so I don't need a lengthy response, just a yes or a no. And I understand the basis upon which you are not answering them, but I need to ask them for the record.
If Monica Lewinsky says that while you were in the Oval Office area you touched her breasts, would she be lying?
CLINTON: Let me say something about all this.
QUESTION: All I really need for you, Mr. President...
CLINTON: I know. But...
QUESTION: ... I want (ph) an (ph) answer under the previous grounds or to answer the question, you see, because we only have four hours and your answers have been extremely lengthy.
CLINTON: I know -- well it's -- I know that. I'll give you four hours and 30 seconds, if you'll let me say something general about this.
I will answer to your satisfaction that I won't -- based on my statement I will not answer. I would like 30 seconds at the end to make a statement. And you can have 30 seconds more on your time, if you'll let me say this to the grand jury and to you. And I don't think it's disrespectful at all. I've had a lot of time to think about this.
But go ahead and ask your questions.
QUESTION: The question is, if Monica Lewinsky says that while you were in the Oval Office area, you touched her breast, would she be lying?
CLINTON: That is not my recollection. My recollection is that I did not have sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky. And I'm staying on my former statement about that.
QUESTION: If she said...
CLINTON: My statement is that I did not have sexual relations as defined by that.
QUESTION: If she says that you kissed her breast, would she be lying?
CLINTON: I'm going to revert to my former statement.
QUESTION: OK. If Monica Lewinsky says that, while you were in the Oval Office area you touched her genitalia, would she be lying? That calls for a yes, no, or reverting to your former statement.
CLINTON: I will revert to my statement on that.
QUESTION: If Monica Lewinsky says that you used a cigar as a sexual aid with her in the Oval Office area, would she be lying? Yes, no, or won't answer?
CLINTON: I will revert to my former statement.
QUESTION: If Monica Lewinsky says that you had phone sex with her, would she be lying?
CLINTON: Well, that is -- at least, in general terms, I think, is covered by my statement. I addressed that in my statement. And I don't believe it's...
QUESTION: Let me define phone sex for purposes of my question. Phone sex occurs when the party to the phone conversation masturbates while the other party is talking in a sexually explicit manner. The question is, if Monica Lewinsky says that you had phone sex with her, would she be lying?
CLINTON: I think that is covered by my statement.
QUESTION: Did you on or about January 13, 1998, Mr. President, ask Erskine Bowles to ask John Hilley if he would give a recommendation for Monica Lewinsky?
CLINTON: In 1998?
QUESTION: Yes. On or about January 13, 1998, did you ask Erskine Bowles, your chief of staff, if he would ask John Hilley to give a recommendation for Monica Lewinsky?
CLINTON: At some point, sir, I believe I talked to Erskine Bowles about whether Monica Lewinsky could get a recommendation that was not negative from the Legislative Affairs Office. I believe I did.
QUESTION: I just didn't hear the very last part.
CLINTON: I think the answer is -- I think -- yes, at some point I talked to Erskine Bowles about this. I do not know what the date was. At some point, I did talk to him.
QUESTION: And if Erskine Bowles has said, has told us that he told John Podesta to carry out your wishes, and John Podesta states that it was three or four days before your deposition, which would be the 13th or the 14th, are you in a position to deny that?
CLINTON: The 13th or 14th of...
QUESTION: January, as to date?
CLINTON: I don't know. I don't know when the date was.
QUESTION: OK.
CLINTON: I'm not in a position to deny it. I won't deny it. I'm sure that they're both truthful men. I don't know when the date was.
QUESTION: Do you recall asking Erskine Bowles to...
CLINTON: I recall talking to Erskine Bowles about that. And my recollection is, sir, that Ms. Lewinsky was moving to New York, wanted to get a job in the private sector, was confident she would get a good recommendation from the Defense Department. and was concerned that, because she had been moved from the Legislative Affairs Office, transferred to the Defense Department, that her ability to get a job might be undermined by a bad recommendation from the Legislative Affairs Office.
So I asked Erskine if we could get her a recommendation that just was at least neutral so that, if she had a good recommendation from the Defense Department, it wouldn't prevent her from getting a job in the private sector.
QUESTION: If Mr. Bowles has told us that, in fact, you told him that she already had a job, and had already listed Mr. Hilley as a reference, and wanted him to be available as a recommendation, would you be -- is that inconsistent with your memory?
CLINTON: A little bit. But I think -- my memory is that when you're -- when you get a job like that, you have to give them a resume which says where you've worked and who your supervisor was. And I think that that's my recollection. My recollection is that --slightly different from that.
QUESTION: And who was it that asked you to do that on Monica Lewinsky's behalf?
CLINTON: I think she did. You know, she tried for months and months to get a job back in the White House, not so much in the West Wing, but somewhere in the White House complex, including the Old Executive Office Building. And she talked to Marsha Scott, among others. She very much wanted to come back.
And she interviewed for some jobs but never got one. And she was, from time to time, upset about it. And I think what she was afraid of is that she couldn't get a -- from the minute she left the White House she was worried about this, that she would -- that if she didn't come back to the White House and work for a while and get a good job recommendation, that no matter how well she had done at the Pentagon, it might hurt her future employment prospects.
Well, it became obvious that, you know, her mother had moved to New York. She wanted to go to New York. She wasn't going to get a job in the White House. So she wanted to get a job in the private sector, and she said that, "I hope that I won't get a letter out of the Legislative Affairs Office that will prevent my getting a job in the private sector." And that's what I talked to Erskine about. Now, that's my entire memory of this.
QUESTION: All right. I want to go back briefly to the December 28th conversation with Ms. Lewinsky. I believe you testified to the effect that she asked you -- What if they ask me about gifts she gave me? My question to you is, after that statement by her, did you ever have a conversation with Betty Currie about gifts or picking something up for Monica Lewinsky?
CLINTON: I don't believe I did, sir. No.
QUESTION: You never told her anything to this effect -- that Monica has something to give you? That is to say, Betty Currie?
CLINTON: No, sir, I didn't. I don't have any memory of that whatever.
QUESTION: And so you have no knowledge that -- or you had no knowledge at the time that Betty Currie went and picked up -- your secretary went and picked up from Monica Lewinsky -- items that were called for by the Jones subpoena and hid them under her bed? You had no knowledge that anything remotely like that was going to happen?
CLINTON: I did not. I did not know she had those items, I believe, until that was made public.
QUESTION: And you agree with me that that would be a very wrong thing to do, to hide evidence in a civil case or any case? Isn't that true?
CLINTON: Yes. I don't know that Miss Currie knew that that's what she had at all. But...
QUESTION: I'm not saying she did. I'm just saying...
CLINTON: I had -- it is -- if Monica Lewinsky did that after they had been subpoenaed, and she knew what she was doing, she should not have done that. And I...
QUESTION: And if you...
CLINTON: And indeed, I myself told her, if they ask you for gifts, you have to give them what you have. And I don't understand if, in fact, she was worried about this why she was so worried about it. It was no big deal.
QUESTION: I want to talk about a December 17th phone conversation you had with Monica Lewinsky at approximately 2 a.m. Do you recall making that conversation and telling her initially about the death of Betty's brother, but then telling her that she was on the witness list, and that it broke your heart that she was on the witness list?
CLINTON: No, sir, I don't. But it would -- it -- it would -- it is quite possible that that happened because if you remember earlier in this meeting, you asked me some questions about what I'd said to Monica about testimony and affidavits, and I was struggling to try to remember whether this happened in a meeting or a phone call. Now I remember I called her to tell her Betty's brother had died. I remember that. And I know it was in the middle of December, and I believe it was before Monica had been subpoenaed.
So I think it is quite possible that, if I called her at that time and had not talked to her since the sixth -- and you asked me this earlier -- I believe when I saw her on the sixth, I don't think I knew she was on the witness list then. Then it's quite possible I would say something like that.
I don't have any memory of it, but I certainly wouldn't dispute that I might have said that.
Continued...
