Monday, September 21, 1998
QUESTION: And in that conversation, or in any conversation in which you informed her she was on the witness list, did you tell her, you know, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or bringing me letters? Did you tell her anything like that?
CLINTON: I don't remember. She was coming to see Betty. I can tell you this. I absolutely never asked her to lie.
QUESTION: Sir, every time she came to see Betty and you were in the Oval Office, she was coming to see you, too, wasn't she, or just about every time?
CLINTON: I think just about every time. I don't think every time. I think there was a time or two where she came to see Betty when she didn't see me.
QUESTION: So, do you remember telling her any time, any time when you told her, or after you told her that she was on the witness list, something to this effect: You know, you can always say you were coming to see Betty, or you were bringing me letters?
CLINTON: I don't remember exactly what I told her that night.
QUESTION: Did you --
CLINTON: I don't remember that. I remember talking about the nature of our relationship, how she got in. But I also will tell you that I felt quite comfortable that she could have executed a truthful affidavit, which would not have disclosed the embarrassing details of the relationship that we had had, which had been over for many, many months by the time this incident occurred.
QUESTION: Did you tell her anytime in December something to the effect: You know, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or you were bringing me letters? Did you say that, or anything like that, in December '97 or January '98, to Monica Lewinsky?
CLINTON: Well, that's a very broad question. I do not recall saying anything like that in connection with her testimony. I could tell you what I do remember saying, if you want to know. But I don't -- we might have talked about what to do in a non legal context at some point in the past, but I have no specific memory of that conversation.
I do remember what I said to her about the possible testimony.
QUESTION: You would agree with me, if you did say something like that to her, to urge her to say that to the Jones people, that would be part of an effort to mislead the Jones people, no matter how evil they are and corrupt?
CLINTON: I didn't say they were evil. I said what they were doing here was wrong, and it was.
QUESTION: Wouldn't that be misleading?
CLINTON: Well, again, you are trying to get me to characterize something that I'm -- that I don't know if I said or not, without knowing whether the whole, whether the context is complete or not. So, I would have to know, what was the context, what were all the surrounding facts.
I can tell you this: I never asked Ms. Lewinsky to lie. The first time that she raised with me the possibility that she might be a witness or I told her -- you suggested the possibility in this December 17th timeframe -- I told her she had to get a lawyer. And I never asked her to lie.
QUESTION: Did you ever say anything like that, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or bringing me letters? Was that part of any kind of a, anything you said to her or a cover story, before you had any idea she was going to be part of Paula Jones?
CLINTON: I might well have said that.
QUESTION: Okay.
CLINTON: Because I certainly didn't want this to come out, if I could help it. And I was concerned about that. I was embarrassed about it. I knew it was wrong. And, you know, of course, I didn't want it to come out. But --
QUESTION: But you are saying that you didn't say anything -- I want to make sure I understand. Did you say anything like that once you knew or thought she might be a witness in the Jones case? Did you repeat that statement, or something like it to her?
CLINTON: Well, again, I don't recall, and I don't recall whether I might have done something like that, for example, if somebody says, what if the reporters ask me this, that or the other thing. I can tell you this: In the context of whether she could be a witness, I have a recollection that she asked me, well, what do I do if I get called as a witness, and I said, you have to get a lawyer. And that's all I said. And I never asked her to lie.
QUESTION: Did you tell her to tell the truth?
CLINTON: Well, I think the implication was she would tell the truth. I've already told you that I felt strongly that she could issue, that she could execute an affidavit that would be factually truthful, that might get her out of having to testify. Now, it obviously wouldn't if the Jones people knew this, because they knew that if they could get this and leak it, it would serve their larger purposes, even if the judge ruled that she couldn't be a witness in the case. The judge later ruled she wouldn't be a witness in the case. The judge later ruled the case had no merit.
So, I knew that. And did I hope she'd be able to get out of testifying on an affidavit? Absolutely. Did I want her to execute a false affidavit? No, I did not.
QUESTION: If Monica Lewinsky has stated that her affidavit that she didn't have a sexual relationship with you is, in fact, a lie, I take it you disagree with that?
CLINTON: No. I told you before what I thought the issue was there. I think the issue is how do you define sexual relationship. And there was no definition imposed on her at the time she executed the affidavit. Therefore, she was free to give it any reasonable meaning.
QUESTION: And if she says she was lying --
CLINTON: And I believe --
QUESTION: -- under your common sense ordinary meaning that you talked about earlier, Mr. President, that most Americans would have, if she says sexual relationship, saying I didn't have one was a lie because I had oral sex with the President, I take it, you would disagree with that?
CLINTON: Now, we're back to where we started and I have to invoke my statement. But, let me just say one thing. I've read a lot, and obviously I don't know whether any of it's accurate, about what she said, and what purports to be on those tapes.
And this thing -- and I searched my own memory. This reminds me, to some extent, of the hearings when Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill were both testifying under oath. Now, in some rational way, they could not have both been telling the truth, since they had directly different accounts of a shared set of facts. Fortunately, or maybe you think unfortunately, there was no special prosecutor to try to go after one or the other of them, to take sides and try to prove one was a liar.
A: And so, Judge Thomas was able to go on and serve on the Supreme Court.
What I learned from that, I can tell you that I was a citizen out there just listening. And when I heard both of them testify, what I believed after it was over, I believed that they both thought they were telling the truth.
This is -- you're dealing with, in some ways, the most mysterious area of human life. I'm doing the best I can to give you honest answers.
QUESTION:Mr. President --
CLINTON:And that's all I can say.
QUESTION:I'm sorry.
CLINTON:And, you know, those people both testified under oath. So, if there'd been a special prosecutor, they could, one of them could have gone after Anita Hill, another could have gone after Clarence Thomas. I thank God there was no such thing then, because I don't believe that it was a proper thing.
QUESTION:One of --
CLINTON:And I think they both thought they were telling the truth. So, maybe Ms. Lewinsky believes she's telling the truth, and I'm glad she got her mother and herself out of trouble. I'm glad you gave her that sweeping immunity. I'm glad for the whole thing. I, I, I -- it breaks my heart that she was ever involved in this.
QUESTION:I want to go back to a question about Vernon Jordan. I want to go back to late December and early January, late December of '97 and early January of '98. During this time, Mr. President, you are being sued for sexual harassment by a woman who claims, among other things, that others got benefits that she didn't because she didn't have oral sex with you. While this is happening, your powerful friend, Vernon Jordan, is helping to get Monica Lewinsky a job and a lawyer. He's helping to get a job and a lawyer for someone who had some kind of sex with you, and who has been subpoenaed in the very case, the Jones case.
Don't you see a problem with this? Didn't you see a problem with this.
CLINTON:No. Would you like to know why?
QUESTION:Isn't that why -- I would. But isn't that why Vernon Jordan asked you on December 19th whether or not you had sexual relationships with Monica Lewinsky and why he asked her, because he knew it would be so highly improper to be helping her with a lawyer and a job if, in fact, she had had a relationship with you?
CLINTON:I don't know. I don't believe that at all. I don't believe that at all, particularly since, even if you look at the facts here in their light most unfavorable to me, no one has suggested that there was any sexual harassment on my part. And I don't think it was wrong to be helping her. Look --
QUESTION:A subpoenaed witness in a case against you?
CLINTON:Absolutely. Look, for one thing, I had already proved in two ways that I was not trying to influence her testimony. I didn't order her to be hired at the White House. I could have done so. I wouldn't do it. She tried for months to get in. She was angry.
Secondly, after I --
QUESTION:Wasn't she kept --
CLINTON:After I terminated the improper contact with her, she wanted to come in more than she did. She got angry when she didn't get in sometimes. I knew that that might make her more likely to speak, and I still did it because I had to limit the contact.
And thirdly, let me say, I formed an opinion really in early 1996, and again -- well, let me finish the sentence. I formed an opinion early in 1996, once I got into this unfortunate and wrong conduct, that when I stopped it, which I knew I'd have to do and which I should have done a long time before I did, that she would talk about it. Not because Monica Lewinsky is a bad person. She's basically a good girl. She's a good young woman with a good heart and a good mind. I think she is burdened by some unfortunate conditions of her, her upbringing. But she's basically a good person.
But I knew that the minute there was no longer any contact, she would talk about this. She would have to. She couldn't help it. It was, it was a part of her psyche. So, I had put myself at risk, sir. I was not trying to buy her silence or get Vernon Jordan to buy her silence. I thought she was a good person. She had not been involved with me for a long time in any improper way, several months, and I wanted to help her get on with her life. It's just as simple as that.
MR. WISENBERG: It's time for a break.
MR. KENDALL: OK. 4:49
(Whereupon, the proceedings were recessed from 4:49 p.m. until 5:05 p.m.)
MR. KENDALL: Bob, we are at 2 hours and 55 minutes.
MR. BITTMAN: Two hours and 55 minutes, thank you.
BY MR. BITTMAN:
QUESTION:Mr. President.
CLINTON:Mr. Bittman.
QUESTION:Apparently we have one hour and five minutes left, if we stick to the four-hour timeframe.
MR. KENDALL: Plus 30 seconds.
MR. BITTMAN: And 30 seconds, that's right.
THE WITNESS: You gave me my 30 seconds' soliloquy. So, I owe you 30 seconds.
BY MR. BITTMAN:
QUESTION:You are very generous. That actually segues very nicely into one of the grand juror's asked, pointed out actually, that you indicated at the beginning of the deposition that you would, you would answer all the grand jurors, you wanted to answer all the grand jurors' questions. And they wanted to know whether you would be willing to stay beyond the four-hour period to, in fact, answer all their questions.
CLINTON:Well, let's see how we do in the next hour, and then we'll decide.
QUESTION:Okay. Let me draw your attention to early January of this year, after Christmas, before your deposition. Do you remember talking to Betty Currie about Monica, who had just called her and said that she, Monica, needed to talk to you before she signed something?
CLINTON:I'm not sure that I do remember that. But, go ahead.
CLINTON:This is in early January. And then Betty Currie relayed this to you that Monica called, it's very important, she needs to talk to you before she signs something. And then you do, indeed, talk to Monica that day on the telephone.
CLINTON:I did talk to her that day?
QUESTION:Yes
MR. KENDALL: Mr. President, excuse me. That's a question. If you have a memory of that, you can answer.
THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember when the last time I talked to her was. I'm aware, sir, that she signed this affidavit about this time, sometime in the first week in January. I may have talked to her before she did it. I don't know. I talked to her a number of times between the time Betty's brother died and Christmas. Then I saw her on December 28. I may have talked to her, but I don't remember the specific conversation.
BY MR. BITTMAN:
QUESTION:And you would have talked about the -- she had just given you a gift actually in early January, a book on the Presidents of the United States. And you discussed this with her and she said that you said you liked it a lot.
CLINTON:I did like it a lot. I told you that. My impression, my belief was that she gave me that book for Christmas. Maybe that's not right. I think she had that book delivered to me for Christmas. And then, as I remember, I went to Bosnia and for some reason she wasn't there around Christmas time.
But, anyway, maybe I didn't get it until January. My recollection was that I had gotten it right before Christmas.
QUESTION:Let me see if I can jog your memory further. Monica talked to you in that phone conversation that told you
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