Monday, September 21, 1998
BY MR. BITTMAN:
QUESTION: is that accurate? Is that a truthful statement by Mrs. Currie, if she made it?
CLINTON: I do not remember how many times I talked to Betty Currie or when, I don't. I can't possibly remember that. I do remember, when I first heard about this story breaking, trying to ascertain what the facts were, trying to ascertain what Betty's perception was. I remember that I was highly agitated, understandably, I think.
And then I remember when I knew she was going to have to testify to the grand jury, and I, I felt terrible because she had been through this loss of her sister, this horrible accident Christmas that killed her brother, and her mother was in the hospital. I was trying to do -- to make her understand that I didn't want her to, to be untruthful to the grand jury. And if her memory was different from mine, it was fine, just go in there and tell them what she thought.
BY MR. BENNETT:
QUESTION: M. President, my name is Jackie Bennett. If I understand your current line of testimony, you are saying that your only interest in speaking with Mr. Currie in the days after your deposition was to refresh your own recollection?
CLINTON: Yes.
QUESTION: It was not to impart instructions on how she was to recall things in the future?
CLINTON: No, and certainly not under oath. That -- every day, Mr. Bennett, in the White House and in every other political organization, when you are subject to a barrage of press questions of any kind, you always try to make the best case you can consistent with the facts; that is, while being truthful.
But -- so, I was concerned for a day or two there about this as a press story only. I had no idea you were involved in it for a couple of days.
I think Betty Currie's testimony will be that I gave her explicit instructions or encouragement to just go in the grand jury and tell the truth. That's what I told her to do and I thought she would.
QUESTION: Mr. President, when did you learn about the Drudge Report reporting allegations of you having a sexual relationship with someone at the White House?
CLINTON: I believe it was the morning of the 18th, I think.
QUESTION: What time of day, sir?
CLINTON: I have no idea.
QUESTION: Early morning hours?
CLINTON: Yeah, I think somebody called me and told me about it. Maybe Bruce, maybe someone else. I'm not sure, but I learned early on the 18th of the Drudge Report.
QUESTION: Very early morning hours, sir?
CLINTON: Now, my deposition was on the 17th, is that right?
QUESTION: On Saturday, the 17th, sir.
CLINTON: Yeah, I think it was when I got up Sunday morning, I think. Maybe it was late Saturday night. I don't remember.
QUESTION: Did you call Betty Currie, sir, after the Drudge Report hit the wire?
CLINTON: I did.
QUESTION: Did you call her at home?
CLINTON: I did. Was that the night of the 17th?
QUESTION: Night of the 17th, early morning hours of the 18th?
CLINTON: Okay, yes. That's because -- yes. I worked with Prime Minister Netanyahu that night until about midnight.
MR. KENDALL: Wait.
THE WITNESS: Isn't that right?
MR. KENDALL: Excuse me. I think the question is directed -- Mr. Bennett, if you could help out by putting the day of the week, I think that would be helpful.
BY MR. BENNETT:
QUESTION: Saturday night, Sunday morning?
CLINTON: Yes. I called Betty Currie as soon -- I think about as soon as I could, after I finished with Prime Minister Netanyahu, and in the aftermath of that meeting planning where we were going next in the Middle East peace process.
MR. KENDALL: Can we take a two-minute break, please?
MR. BITTMAN: May I ask one other question first, Mr. Kendall?
MR. KENDALL: Certainly. I think the witness is confused on dates. That's all.
MR. BITTMAN: Okay.
THE WITNESS: That's what -- I didn't think it was the night of the 17th.
MR. KENDALL: Mr. President, I think we'll do it in a break.
THE WITNESS: Can we have a break and I could get straightened out?
MR. BITTMAN: Sure. May I ask one other quick -- this is a question I forgot to ask from the grand jurors.
THE WITNESS: I don't want to get mixed up on these dates now. Go ahead.
BY MR. BITTMAN:
QUESTION: This is -- they wanted to know whether, they want us to clarify that the President's knowledge, your knowledge, Mr. President, as to the approach to our office this morning; that is, we were told that you would give a general statement about the nature of your relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, which you have done. Yet that you would -- you did not want to go into any of the details about the relationship. And that if we pressed on going into the details, that you would object to going into the details.
And the grand jurors, before they wanted, they wanted to vote on some other matters, they wanted to know whether you were aware of that? That we were told that?
MR. KENDALL: Well, Mr. Bittman, who told you that? This is, this is, this is not a fair question, when you say you were told. Who told you?
MR. BITTMAN: Who told me what, the question?
MR. KENDALL: You said, you said the grand jury was told.
MR. BITTMAN: We have kept the grand jury informed, as we normally would, of the proceedings here.
MR. KENDALL: Right. And I'm sorry. Who, who are you representing told you or the grand jurors anything? Is that, is that our conversation?
Mr. BITTMAN: Yes.
Mr. STARR: Yes, our conversation.
MR. BITTMAN: Yes. That was in substance related to the grand jurors.
THE WITNESS: And what's your question to me, Mr. Bittman?
BY MR. BITTMAN:
QUESTION: Whether you were aware of the facts that I just described?
CLINTON: Yes, sir. Let me say this. I knew that Mr. Kendall was going to talk with Judge Starr. What we wanted to do was to be as helpful as we could to you on the question of whether you felt I was being truthful, when I said I did not have sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky, as defined in that definition (1) in this, in my testimony.
And I though the best way to do that, and still preserve some measure of privacy and dignity, would be to invite all of you and the grand jurors to ask, well, would you consider this, that, or the other thing covered by the definition. You asked me several questions there, and I did my best to answer whether I thought they were covered by the definition, and said if I thought they were covered, you could conclude from that that my testimony is I did not do them.
If those things, if things are not covered by the definition, and I don't believe they are covered, then I could not --then they shouldn't be within this discussion one way or the other.
Now, I know this is somewhat unusual. But I would say to the grand jury, put yourself in my position. This is not a typical grand jury testimony. I, I have to assume a report is going to Congress. There's a videotape being made of this, allegedly because only one member of the grand jury is absent. This is highly unusual. And, in addition to that, I have sustained a breathtaking number of leaks of grand jury proceedings.
And, so, I think I am right to answer all the questions about perjury, but not to say things which will be forever in the historic annals of the United States because of this unprecedented videotape and may be leaked at any time. I just think it's a mistake.
And so, I'm doing my best to cooperate with the grand jury and still protect myself, my family, and my office.
MR. BITTMAN: Thank you.
MR. KENDALL: This will be two minutes.
(Whereupon, the proceedings were recessed from 5:37 p.m. until 5:43 p.m.)
BY MR. BENNETT:
QUESTION: Mr. President, before we broke, we were talking about the sequencing of your conversations with Betty Currie following your deposition on Saturday, January 17th. Do you recall that?
CLINTON: I do.
QUESTION: All right. And you recall contacting Betty Currie, calling her and instructing her on the evening of Saturday night, after your deposition, and telling her to come in the next day?
CLINTON: Yes, sir, I do.
QUESTION: Sunday was normally her day off, isn't that so?
CLINTON: Yes, it was.
QUESTION: And so you were making special arrangements for her to come back into the White House, isn't that so?
CLINTON: Well, yes. I asked her to come back in and talk to me.
QUESTION: And it was at that time that you spoke with her, and Mr. Bittman and Mr. Wisenberg have asked you questions about what you said in that conversation, isn't' that so?
CLINTON: Yes, they have -- I don't know whether that's the time, but they -- I did talk to her as soon as I realized that the deposition had become more about Monica Lewinsky than Paula Jones. I asked her, you know, if she knew anything about this. I said, you know, it's obvious that this is going to be a matter of press speculation, and I was trying to go through the litany of what had happened between us, and asked some questions.
QUESTION: On fairness, it would be more than a matter of simple press speculation, isn't that so?
QUESTION: Mr. President, there was a question about whether you had testified fully, completely and honestly on the preceding day in your
deposition.
CLINTON: Well, actually, Mr. Bennett, I didn't think about that then. I -- this has been a rather unprecedented development, and I wasn't even thinking about the Independent Counsel getting into this. So, at that moment, I knew nothing about it and I was more interested in what the facts were and whether Ms. Currie knew anything about it, knew anything about what Monica Lewinsky knew about it.
QUESTION: Mr. President, you've told us at least a little bit about your understanding of how the term sexual relations was used, and what you understood it to mean in the context of your deposition. Isn't that correct?
CLINTON: That is correct.
QUESTION: And you've told us -- I mean, that was a lawsuit Paula Jones filed in which she alleged that you asked her to preform oral sex, isn't that so?
CLINTON: That was her allegation.
QUESTION: That was her allegation. And, notwithstanding that that was her allegation, you've testified that you understood the term sexual relations, in the context of the questions you were being asked, to mean something else, at least insofar as you were the recipient rather than the performer?
CLINTON: Sir, Paula Jones' lawyers pulled out that definition, not me. And Judge Susan Webber Wright ruled on it, just as she later ruled their case had no merit in the firs place, no legal merit, an dismissed it.
I had nothing to do with the definition, nothing to do with the Judge's rulings. I was simply there answering questions they put to me, under the terms of reference they imposed.
QUESTION: Well, the grand jury would like to know, Mr. President, why it is that you think that oral sex performed on you does not fall within the definition of sexual relations as used in this deposition.
CLINTON: Because that is -- if the deponent is the person who has oral sex performed on him, then the contact is with -- not with anything on that list, but with the lips of another person. It seems to be self-evident that that's what it is. And I though it was curious
Let me remind you, sir, I read this carefully. And I thought about it. I thought about what "contact" meant. I thought about what "intent to arouse or gratify" meant.
And I had to admit under this definition that I'd actually had sexual relations with Gennifer Flowers. Now, I would rather have taken a whipping than done that, after all the trouble I'd been through with Gennifer Flowers, and the money I knew that she made for the story she told about this alleged 12-year affair, which we had done a great deal to disproved.
So, I didn't like any of this. but I had done my best to deal with it and the -- that's what I thought. And I think that's what most people would think, reading that.
QUESTION: Would you have been prepared, if asked by the Jones lawyers, would you have been prepared to answer a question directly asked about oral sex performed on you by Monica Lewinsky?
CLINTON: If the judge had required me to answer it, of course, I would have answered ti. And I would have answered it truthfully, if I--
QUESTION: By the way, do you believe that the ---
CLINTON: -- had been required.
QUESTION: -- Jones litigants had the same understanding of sexual relations that you claim you have?
CLINTON: I don't know what their understanding was, sir. My belief is that they though they'd get this whole thing in, and that they were going to -- what they were trying to do is do just what they did with Gennifer Flowers. They wanted to find anything they could get from me or anyone else that was negative, and then they wanted to leak it to hurt me in the press, which they did even though the Judge order them not to.
So, I think their --
QUESTION: Wouldn't it -- I'm sorry.
CLINTON: I think their position, Mr. Bennett -- you asked the question -- their position was, we're going to cast the widest net we can and get as much embarrassing stuff as we can, and then dump it out there and see if we can make him bleed. I think that's what they were trying to do.
QUESTION: Don't you think, sir, that they could have done more damage to you politically, or in whatever context, if they had understood the definition in the same way you did and asked the question directly?
CLINTON: I don't know, sir. As I said, I didn't work with their lawyers in preparing this case. I knew the case was wrong. I knew what your evidence was. By the time of this deposition, they knew what their evidence was.
Their whole strategy was, well, our lawsuit's not good, but maybe we can hurt him with the discovery. And you know, they did some. But it didn't amount to much.
And did I want, if I could, to avoid talking about Monica Lewinsky? Yes, I'd give anything in the world not to be here talking about it. I'd be giving -- I'd give anything in the world not to have to admit what I've had to admit today.
But if you look at my answer in the Flowers 1/8sic 3/8 deposition, at least you know I tried to carefully fit all my answers within the framework there, because otherwise there was no reason in the wide world for me to do anything other than make the statements I'd made about Gennifer Flowers since 1991, that I did not have a 12-year affair with her, and that these, the following accusations she made are false. So that's all I can tell you. I can't prove anything.
QUESTION: But you did have a great deal of anxiety in the hours and days following the end of your deposition on the 17th. Isn't that fair to say?
CLINTON: Well, I had a little anxiety the next day, of course, because of the Drudge Report. And I had an anxiety after the deposition because it was more about Monica Lewinsky than it was about Paula Jones.
QUESTION: The specificity of the questions relating to Monica Lewinsky alarmed you, isn't that fair to say?
CLINTON: Yes, and it bothered me, too, that I couldn't remember the answers. It bothered me that I couldn't -- as Mr. Wisenberg pointed out, it bothered me that I couldn't remember all the answers. I did the best I could. And so I wanted to know what the deal was. Sure.
QUESTION: Mr. President, to your knowledge, have you turned over, in response to the grand jury subpoenas, all gifts that Monica Lewinsky gave you?
CLINTON: To my knowledge, I have, sir. As you know, on occasion, Mr. Kendall has asked for your help in identifying those gifts. And I think there were a couple that we came across in our search that were not on the list you gave us, that I remembered in the course of our search had been given to me by Monica Lewinsky and we gave them to you.
QUESTION: Can you explain why, on the very day that Monica Lewinsky testified in the grand jury on August 6th of this year, you wore a necktie that she had given you?
CLINTON: No sir, I don't believe I did. What necktie was it?
QUESTION: The necktie you wore on August 6th, sir.
CLINTON: Well, I don't know that it was a necktie that Monica Lewinsky gave me. Can you describe it to me?
QUESTION: Well, I don't want to take time at this point, but we will provide you with photographic evidence of that, Mr. President.
CLINTON: If you give me -- I don't believe that's accurate, Mr. Bennett.
QUESTION: So, let me ask the question --
CLINTON: But if you give it to me, and I look at it and remember that she gave it to me, I'll be happy to produce it. I do not believe that's right.
QUESTION: Well, if you remember that she gave it toy you, why haven't you produced it to the grand jury?
CLINTON: I don't remember that she gave it to me. That's why I asked you what the tie was. I have --
QUESTION: Can you --
CLINTON: -- no earthly idea. I believe that, that I id not wear a tie she gave me on August the 6th.
QUESTION: Can you tell us why Bayani Nelvis wore a tie that Monica Lewinsky had given you on the day he appeared in the grand jury?
CLINTON: I don't know that he did.
QUESTION: Have you given Bayani Nelvis any ties, sir?
CLINTON: Oh, yes, a lot of ties.
QUESTION: And so if he wore the tie that you gave him, that Monica Lewinsky had given you, that would not have been by design, is that what you're telling us?
CLINTON: Oh, absolutely not. Let me --
QUESTION: You are not --
CLINTON: May I explain, Mr. Bennett? I won't --
QUESTION: Yes.
CLINTON: -- take long. Every year, since I've been President, I've gotten quite a large number of ties, as you might imagine. I get, I have a couple of friends, one in Chicago and one in Florida who give me a lot of ties, a lot of other people who send me ties all the time, or give them to me when I see therm.
So, I always have a growing number of ties in my closet. What I normally do, if someone gives me a tie as a gift, is I wear it a time or two. I may use it. But at the end of every year, and sometimes two times a year, sometimes more, I go through my closet and I think of all the things that I won't wear a lot or that I might give away. I give them mostly to the men who work there.
I give them to people like Glen and Nelvis, who work in the kitchen, back in the White House, or the gentlemen who are my stewards or butlers, or the people who run the elevators. And I give a lot of ties away a year. I'll bet I -- excluding Christmas, I bet I give 30, 40, maybe more ties away a year, and then, of course, at Christmas, a lot.
So there would be nothing unusual if, in fact, Nelvis had a tie that originally had come into my tie closet from Monica Lewinsky. It wouldn't be unusual. It wouldn't be by design. And there are several other people of whom that is also true.
QUESTION: Mr. President, I'd like to move to a different area right now. I'd like to ask you some questions about Kathleen Willey. You met Kathleen Willey during your 1992 campaign, isn't that so?
CLINTON: Yes, sir, I did.
QUESTION: As a matter of fact, you first saw her at a rope line at the Richmond, Virginia airport on October 13, 1992, is that not correct?
CLINTON: I don't believe that is correct.
QUESTION: When did you first meet her, sir?
CLINTON: Well, let me ask you this. When was the debate in Richmond?
QUESTION: Well, I believe it was October 13, 1992, sir.
CLINTON: Well, I believe that I had met her -- I believe I had met her before then, because Governor Wilder, I believe that was his last year as governor -- I think that's right, 92-93. I believe that I met her in connection with her involvement with Governor Wilder.
And I have the impression -- it's kind of a vague memory, but I have the impression that I had met her once before, at least once before I came to that Richmond debate. Now, I'm not sure of that.
QUESTION: Well, at least if you had met her before --
CLINTON: But I am quite sure she was at the Richmond debate and I did meet her there. I'm quite sure of that.
QUESTION: Mr. President, you've seen television footage of you standing on a rope line with Donald Beyer, Lt. Governor Donald Beyer --
CLINTON: I have.
QUESTION: -- asking Mr. Beyer for the name of Kathleen Willey? You've seen that footage, haven't you?
CLINTON: I don't know that I've seen it, but I am aware that it exists.
QUESTION: All right. And you can see him, you can read his lips. He's saying the name of Kathleen Willey in response to a question from you, isn't that so?
CLINTON: That's what I've heard.
QUESTION: And, as a matter of fact, you sent Nancy Hernreich, who was present on that day, to go get her telephone number, didn't you, sir/
CLINTON: I don't believe so.
QUESTION: You don't believe so?
CLINTON: Well, let me say this. If that is true, then I'm quite certain that I had met her before. I would never call someone out of the blue what I saw on a rope line and send Nancy Hernreich to get her number to do it.
QUESTION: Even if you were just learning her name for the first time?
CLINTON: That's correct. I'm not so sure that I didn't ask Don Beyer, if he was on the rope line with me, who she was because I thought I had seen her before or I knew I had seen her before and I didn't remember her name. Now, I do that all the time. For men --
QUESTION: Mr. President --
CLINTON: -- and women.
QUESTION: I'm sorry. Do you recall that you sent Nancy Hernreich for her telephone number?
CLINTON: No, I don't.
QUESTION: All right. Do you recall, having received her telephone number, call her that night?
CLINTON: No, sir, I don't.
Continued...
