Monday, September 21, 1998
CLINTON: So I basically -- I don't think I paid any attention to it because it appeared to me that that was something that had no reference to the facts that they admitted they were asking me about.
QUESTION: So if I can be clear, Mr. President, is it -- was it your understanding back in January that definition, now marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 2, only included consensual sexual activity?
CLINTON: My understanding -- let me go back and say, my understanding -- I'll tell you what it did include. My understanding was, when I was giving it to you, was that what was covered in those first two lines was any direct contact by the person being deposed with those parts of another person's body if the contact was done with an intent to arouse or gratify. That's what I believed it meant. That's what I believed it meant then (AUDIO GAP); that's what I believe it means today.
QUESTION: I'm just trying to understand, Mr. President. You indicated that you put the definition in the context of a sexual harassment case...
CLINTON: No, no, I think it was not in the context of sexual harassment. I just re-read those four pages, which obviously the grand jury doesn't have. But there was some reference to the fact that this definition apparently bore some -- had some connection to some definition in another context and that this was being used not in that context, not necessarily in the context of sexual harassment.
So I would think that this causes would be -- means to force someone to do something. That's what I read it. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
Therefore, I did not believe that any one had ever suggested that I had forced anyone to do anything and I did not do that. And so, that could not have had any bearing on any questions relating to Ms. Lewinsky.
QUESTION: I suppose since you have now read portions of the transcripts and that you were reminded that you did not ask for any clarification of the terms, is that correct? Of the definition?
CLINTON: No, sir, I thought it was a rather -- when I read it, I thought it was a rather strange definition. But it was the one the judge decided on, and I was bound by it, so I took it.
QUESTION: During the deposition, you remember that Ms. Lewinsky's name came up and you were asked several questions about her. Do you remember that?
CLINTON: Yes, sir. I do.
QUESTION: During those -- before those questions actually got started, your attorney, Mr. Bennett, objected to any questions about Ms. Lewinsky. And he represented to Judge Wright, who was presiding that was unusual, wasn't it? -- that a federal judge would come and actually -- in your experience, that a federal judge would come and preside at a deposition?
KENDALL: Excuse me. Could you identify the transcript page from which Mr. Bennett objected to all testimony about Ms. Lewinsky before it got started?
QUESTION: The objection -- the quote that I'm referring to is going to begin at page 54 of the deposition.
QUESTION: Mr. President, is it unusual for a federal judge to preside over a civil deposition?
CLINTON: I think it is, but this was an unusual case. I believe I know why she did it.
QUESTION: Your attorney, Mr. Bennett, objected to the questions about Ms. Lewinsky, didn't he?
CLINTON: What page is that on, sir?
QUESTION: Page 54. He questions whether the attorneys for Ms. Jones had a good-faith basis to ask some of the questions that they were posing to you.
His objections actually begin on page 53. Since the president points out to the grand jurors, correctly, do not have a copy of the deposition, I will read the portion that I'm referring to. And this begins at line 1 of page 54.
"I question the good faith of counsel, the innuendo of the question. Counsel is fully aware that Ms. Lewinsky has filed -- has an affidavit, which they are in possession of, saying that there is absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton."
CLINTON: Where is that?
QUESTION: That is on page 54, beginning at line 1. About midway through line 1.
CLINTON: Well, actually, in the present tense, that's an accurate statement. That was an actual -- that was an accurate statement. If -- I don't -- I think what Mr. Bennett was concerned about, if I -- maybe it would be helpful to you and to the grand jurors, quite apart from these comments, if I could tell you what his state of mind was and what my state of mind was and why I think he read (ph) it (ph) to him in the first place.
If you don't want me to do it, I won't. But I think it will help to explain a lot of this.
QUESTION: Well, we are interested -- I know from the questions that we received from the grand jurors they are interested in knowing what was going on in your mind when you were reading Grand Jury Exhibit 2 and what you understood that definition to include.
Our question goes to whether -- and you were familiar with (ph) what Mr. Bennett was referring to, obviously, as Ms. Lewinsky's affidavit. And we will have that marked, Mr. President, as Grand Jury Exhibit WJC 4.
Do you remember what Ms. Lewinsky's affidavit said, that she had had no sexual relationship with you? Do you remember that?
CLINTON: I do.
QUESTION: Do you remember in the deposition that Mr. Bennett asked you about that? This is at the end of the -- of the -- toward the end of the deposition. And you indicated -- he asked you whether the statement that Ms. Lewinsky made in her affidavit was true. And you indicated that it was absolutely correct.
CLINTON: I did. And at the time that she made the statement --and indeed, to the present day, because as far as I know she was never deposed since the judge ruled she would not be permitted to testify in a case the judge ruled had no merit -- that is this case we're talking about -- I believe at the time that she filled out this affidavit, if she believed that the definition of sexual relationship was two people having intercourse, then this is accurate. And I believe that is the definition that most ordinary Americans would give it.
If you said Jane and Harry had a sexual relationship -- and they're not talking about people being drawn into a lawsuit and being given a definition and then a great effort to trick them in some way -- but you're just talking about people in an ordinary conversation, I bet the grand jurors, if they were talking about two people they know and said they had a sexual relationship, they meant they were sleeping together. They meant they were having intercourse together.
So I'm not at all sure that this affidavit is not true and was not true in Ms. Lewinsky's mind at the time she swore (ph) it out.
QUESTION: Did you talk with Ms. Lewinsky about what she meant to write in her affidavit?
CLINTON: I didn't talk to her about her definition. I did not know what was in this affidavit before it was filled out, specifically. I did not know what words was used -- were used specifically before it was filled out or what meaning she gave to them.
But I'm just telling you that it's certainly true what she says here, that we didn't have -- there was no employment or benefit in exchange. There was nothing having anything to do with sexual harassment.
And if she defined sexual relationship in the way I think most Americans do, meaning intercourse, then she told the truth.
CLINTON: And that depends on what was in her mind. I don't know what is her mind. You'll have to ask her that.
QUESTION: But you indicated before that you were aware of what she intended by the term sexual relationship.
CLINTON: No, sir. I said I thought that -- that this could be a truthful affidavit. And when I read it, since that's the way I would define it -- since keep in mind she was not -- she was not bound by this sexual relations definition, which is highly unusual. I think anybody would admit that.
When she used two different terms, sexual relationship, if she meant by that what most people mean by it, then that is not an untruthful statement.
QUESTION: So your definition of sexual relationship is intercourse only, is that correct?
CLINTON: No, not necessarily intercourse only, but it would include intercourse. I believe -- I believe that the common understanding of the term, if you say two people are having a sexual relationship, most people believe that includes intercourse. So if that's what Ms. Lewinsky thought, then this is a truthful affidavit. I don't know what was in her mind, but if that's what she thought, the affidavit is true.
QUESTION: What else would sexual relationship include besides intercourse?
CLINTON: Well, that -- I think -- let me answer what I said before. I think most people when they use that term include sexual relationships and what other -- whatever other sexual contact is involved in a particular relationship. But they think it includes intercourse as well.
And I would have thought so before I got into this case and heard all I've heard and seen all I've seen -- I would have thought that's what nearly everybody thought it meant.
QUESTION: Well, I ask, Mr. President, because your (ph) using the very document -- grand jury exhibit 4, WJC 4 --- represented to Judge Wright that his (ph) understanding of the meaning of that affidavit, which you've indicated you thought Ms. Lewinsky thought was -- was just intercourse. He says to Judge Wright that it meant absolutely no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form.
CLINTON: Well, let me say this: I didn't have any discussion, obviously, at this moment with Mr. Bennett. I'm not even sure I paid much attention to what he was saying. I was think -- I was ready to get on with my testimony here, and they were having these constant discussions all through the deposition.
But that statement in the presence tense, at least, is not inaccurate, if that's what Mr. Bennett meant. But as -- at the time that he said that and for some time before, that would be a completely accurate statement.
Now I don't believe that he was -- I don't know what he meant. You'd have to talk to him, because I just wasn't involved in this and I didn't pay much attention to what being said. I was just waiting for them to get back to me. So I can't comment on or be held responsible for whatever he said about that, I don't think.
QUESTION: Well, if you -- do you agree with me that he misled Judge Wright in some way, that you would have corrected the record and said, excuse me, Mr. Bennett, I think the judge is getting a misimpression by what you're saying?
CLINTON: Mr. Bennett was representing me. I wasn't representing him. And I wasn't even paying much attention to this conversation, which is why when you started asking me about this, I asked to see the deposition.
I was focusing on my answers to the questions, and I told you what I believe about this deposition, which I believe to be true. And it's obvious -- and I think by your questions, you have betrayed that the Jones lawyers strategy in this case had nothing to do with uncovering or proving sexual harassment.
By the time this discovery started, they knew they had a base case on the law. And they knew what our evidence was -- they knew they had a lousy case on the facts.
And so their strategy, since they were being funded by my political opponents, was to have this dragnet of discovery.
Continued...
