Monday, September 21, 1998
CLINTON: They wanted to cover everybody. And they convinced the judge, because she gave them strict orders not to leave, that they should be treated like other plaintiffs in other civil cases. And how could they ever know whether there had been any sexual harassment unless they first knew whether there had been sex?
And so with that broad mandate, limited by time and employment in the federal/state government, they proceeded to cross the country and try to turn up whatever they could -- not because they thought it would help their case. By the time they did this discovery, they knew what the deal was in that case. And they knew what was going to happen. Judge Wright subsequently threw it out.
What they...
QUESTION: But...
CLINTON: Now let me finish, Mr. Bennett. You've got -- I mean, you brought this up.
Excuse me, Mr. Bittman. What they wanted to do and what they did do and what they have done by the time I showed up here was to find any negative information they could on me, whether it was true or not. Get it in a deposition, and then leak it, even though it was illegal to do so. It happened repeatedly. The judge gave them orders.
One of the reasons she was sitting in that deposition was because she was trying to make sure that it didn't get out of hand.
But that was their strategy, and they did a good job of it. And they got away with it.
I've been subject to quite a lot of illegal leaking. And they had a very determined, deliberate strategy, because their real goal was to hurt me. When they knew they couldn't win the lawsuit, they thought, well. maybe we can pummel him. Maybe they thought I'd settle. Maybe they just thought they would get some political advantage out of it.
But that's what was going on here. Now, I'm trying to be honest with you and it hurts me. And I'm trying to tell you the truth about what happened between Ms. Lewinsky and me.
But that does not change the fact that the real reason they were zeroing in on anybody was to try to get any person in there, no matter how uninvolved with Paula Jones, no matter how uninvolved with sexual harassment, so they could hurt me politically.
That's what was going on, because by then, by this time, this thing had been going on a long time. They knew what our evidence was; they knew what the law was in the circuit in which we (ph) were bringing this case.
And so they just thought that they would take a wrecking ball to me and see if they could do some damage.
QUESTION: Judge Wright had ruled that the attorneys in the Jones case were permitted to ask you certain questions.
CLINTON: She certainly did, and they asked them, and I did my best to answer them. I'm just trying to tell you what my state of mind was.
QUESTION: Was it your responsibility to answer those questions truthfully, Mr. President?
CLINTON: It was. But it was not my responsibility, in the face of their repeated illegal leaking, it was not my responsibility to volunteer a lot of information.
There are many cases in this deposition where I gave -- and keep in mind, I prepared -- I treated them, frankly, with respect. I prepared very well for this deposition on the Jones' matters. I prepared very well on that.
I did not know that Linda Tripp had been involved in the preparation of this deposition or that all of...
QUESTION: Do you know that now?
CLINTON: No, I don't. I just know that -- what I read in the papers about it. But I had no way of knowing that they would ask me all these detailed questions. I did the best I could to answer them.
QUESTION: Did you...
CLINTON: But in this deposition, Mr. Bittman, I was doing my best to be truthful. I was not trying to be particularly helpful to them. And I didn't think I had an obligation to be particularly helpful to them to further -- when I knew that there was no evidence here of sexual harassment. And I knew what they wanted to do was to leak this even though it was unlawful to do so. That's what I knew.
QUESTION: Did you believe, Mr. President, that you had an obligation to make sure that the presiding federal judge was on board and had the correct facts? Did you believe that was your obligation?
CLINTON: Sir, I was trying to answer my testimony. I was thinking about my testimony. I don't believe I ever even focused on what Mr. Bennett said in the exact words he did until I started reading this transcript carefully for this hearing.
That moment, the whole argument just passed me by. I was a witness. I was trying to focus on what I said and how I said it. And believe me, I knew what the purpose of the deposition was.
CLINTON: And sure enough, by the way, it did all leak, just I knew it would.
QUESTION: Let me ask you, Mr. President, you indicate in your statement that you were alone with Ms. Lewinsky. Is that right?
CLINTON: Yes, sir.
QUESTION: How many times were you alone with Ms. Lewinsky?
CLINTON: Let me begin with the correct answer -- I don't know for sure. But if you would like me to give an educated guess, I will do that. But I do not know for sure. And I will tell you what I think based on what I remember. But I can't be held to a specific time because I don't have records of all of them.
QUESTION: How many times do you think?
CLINTON: Well, there are two different periods here. There is the period when she worked in the White House until April of '96. And then there's the period when she came back to visit me from February '97 until late December '97.
Based on our records -- let's start with the records, where we have the best records and the closest in time -- based on our records, between February and December, it appears to me that at least I could have seen her approximately nine times. Although I do not believe I saw her quite that many times, at least it could have happened. We think there were nine or 10 times when she was in the White House when I was in the Oval Office when I could have seen her. I do not believe I saw her that many times, but I could have.
Now, we have no records for the time when she was an employee at the White House because we have no records of that for any of the employees at the White House unless there is some formally scheduled meeting that was on the calendar for the day.
I remember -- I'll tell you what I remember. I remember meeting her or having my first real conversation with her during the government shutdown in November of '95, when she -- as I explained in my deposition, during the government shutdown, most federal employees were actually prohibited from coming to work even in the White House. Most people in the White House couldn't come to work. The chief of staff could come to work; my national security adviser could come to work; I could.
Therefore, interns were assigned to all offices. And I believe it was her last week as an intern. Anyway, she worked in the chief of staff's office. One night, she brought me some pizza; we had some remarks. Now, the next time I remember seeing her alone was on a couple of occasions when she was working in the Legislative Affairs Office as a full time employee.
I remember specifically -- I have a specific recollection of two times. I don't remember when they were. But I remember twice when, on a Sunday afternoon, she brought papers down to me, stayed and we were alone.
And I am frankly quite sure -- although I have no specific memory, I am quite sure -- that there were a couple of more times, probably two times more, three times more. That's what I would say. That's what I can remember. But I do not remember when they were or at what time of day they were or what the facts were. But I have a general memory that would say I certainly saw her more than twice during that period between January and April of 1996 when she worked there.
QUESTION: So, if I can summarize your testimony, approximately five times you saw her before she left the White House, and approximately nine times after she left the employment of the White House.
CLINTON: I don't -- there were several times in '97. I told you that I've looked at my calendar and I can tell you what I think the outer limits are. I would think that would sound about right. There could be, in that first four month period, maybe there's one or two more, maybe there's one less. I just don't know. I don't remember. I didn't keep records. But I'm giving you what I specifically remember, and then what I generally remember. I'm doing the best to be helpful to you.
QUESTION: Have you reviewed the records for December 28, 1997, Mr. President.
CLINTON: Yes, sir, I have.
QUESTION: Do you believe that Ms. Lewinsky was at the White House and saw you on December 28th, '97?
CLINTON: Yes, sir, I do.
QUESTION: And do you remember talking with Ms. Lewinsky about her subpoena to appear in the Paula Jones case on that day?
CLINTON: I remember talking with Ms. Lewinsky about her testimony or about the prospect that she might have to give testimony. And she -- she talked to me about that. I remember that.
QUESTION: And you also gave her Christmas gifts -- is that not correct, Mr. President?
CLINTON: Yes, that is correct. They were Christmas gifts and they were going-away gifts. She was moving to New York, taking a new job, starting a new life and I gave her some gifts.
QUESTION: And you actually requested this evening. Is that not correct?
CLINTON: I don't remember that, Mr. Bittman, but it's quite possible that I invited her to come by before she left town. But usually when we met, she requested the meetings. And my recollection is that in 1997, she asked to meet with me several times when I could not meet with her and did not do so.
But it's quite possible that I -- that because she had given me a Christmas gift and because she was leaving that I invited her to come by White House and get a couple of gifts -- and before she left town. I don't remember who requested the meeting though. I'm sorry I don't.
QUESTION: You were alone with her on December 28th, 1997?
CLINTON: Yes, sir. I was.
QUESTION: The gifts that you gave her, you are saying were a tennis bag from the Black Dog Restaurant at Martha's Vineyard. Is that right?
CLINTON: Well, that was just -- that was just something I had in the place to contain the gifts. But I believe that the gifts I gave her -- I put them in that bag. That's what I had there and knew she liked things from the Black Dog so I gave her -- I think that's what I put the presents in. I can tell you what the presents were. I don't remember what the bag was I gave them in.
QUESTION: Did you also give here a marble bear's head carving from Vancouver, Canada?
CLINTON: I did do that. I remember that.
QUESTION: You also gave her a Rockettes blanket (OFF-MIKE) from New York?
CLINTON: I did do that. I had -- I have had that in my possession for a couple of years, but had never used it and she was going to New York, so I thought it would be a nice thing to give her.
QUESTION: You gave her a box of cherry chocolates. Is that right?
CLINTON: I don't remember that, sir. I mean, there could have been. I just don't remember. I remember giving the bear and the throw. I don't remember what else. It seems to like there was other thing in that bag. I don't -- I didn't remember the cherry chocolates.
QUESTION: How about a pin of the New York skyline?
CLINTON: That could have been in there. I seem to remember I gave her some kind of pin.
QUESTION: What about a pair of dark sunglasses?
CLINTON: I don't remember that. I'm not denying it. I just --I'm telling you what I remember and what I don't.
QUESTION: You have given Ms. Lewinsky gifts on other occasions. Is that right, Mr. President?
CLINTON: Yes, I have.
QUESTION: This though was -- you gave her the most gifts that you had ever given her in a single day. Is that right?
CLINTON: Yes, that's probably true. It was sort of like a going-away present and a Christmas present as well and she had given me a particularly nice book for Christmas -- an antique book on presidents. She knew that I collected old books and it was very nice thing. And I just thought I ought to get up a few things and give them to her before she left.
QUESTION: You mentioned that you discussed her subpoena in the Paula Jones case. Tell us specifically what did you discuss?
CLINTON: No, sir, that's what I said. I said my recollection is -- I knew by then, of course, that she had gotten a subpoena and I knew that she was -- therefore -- was slated to testify.
Continued...
