Monday, September 21, 1998
CLINTON: And she mentioned to me -- and I believe it was at this meeting. She mentioned -- I remember a conversation about the possibility of her testifying. I believe it must have occurred on the 28th.
She mentioned to me that she did not want to testify. And so --so that's how it came up -- not in the context of, "I heard you have a subpoena. Let's talk about it."
She raised the issue with me in the context of her desire to avoid testifying, which I certainly understood, not only because there were some embarrassing facts about our relationship that were inappropriate, but also because a whole lot of innocent people were being traumatized and dragged through the mud by these Jones lawyers with their dragnet strategy. They...
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE).
CLINTON: And so I -- and since she didn't know Paula Jones, and knew nothing about sexual harassment, and didn't have -- certainly had no experience with that, I -- I clearly understood why she didn't want to be a part of it.
QUESTION: And you didn't want her to testify, did you? You want her to disclose these embarrassing facts of this inappropriate, intimate relationship that you had? Is that correct?
CLINTON: Well, I did not want her to have to testify and go through that. And of course, I had -- I didn't want her to do that. Of course not.
QUESTION: Did you want those facts -- not only the fact that you had testified, but did you want the facts that she had about your embarrassing, inappropriate, intimate relationship to be disclosed?
CLINTON: Not there. But not in any context. However, I -- I never had any high confidence that they wouldn't be.
QUESTION: Did anyone, as far as you knew, know about your embarrassing, inappropriate, intimate relationship that you had with Ms. Lewinsky?
CLINTON: At that time, I was unaware that she had told anyone else about it. But if -- if I had known that, I would -- it would not have surprised me.
QUESTION: Had you told anyone?
CLINTON: Absolutely not.
QUESTION: And you tried, in fact, not to let anyone else know about this relationship?
CLINTON: Well, of course.
QUESTION: What did you do?
CLINTON: Well, I never said anything about it, for one thing. And I did what people do when they do the wrong thing. I tried to do it when nobody else was looking.
QUESTION: How many times did you do that?
CLINTON: Well, if you go back to my statement, I remember there were a few times in '96. I can't say with any certainty. There was once in early '97. After she left the White House, I do not believe I ever had any inappropriate contact with her in the rest of '96. There was one occasion in '97 when, regrettably, that we were together for a few minutes. I think about 20 minutes. And there was inappropriate contact. And after that, to the best of my memory and belief, it did not occur again.
QUESTION: Did you tell her in the conversation about her being subpoenaed -- she was upset about it. You acknowledged that.
I'm sorry, you have to respond for the record, yes or no. Do you agree that she was upset about being subpoenaed?
CLINTON: Oh, yes, sir, she was upset. She -- well, she -- we --she didn't -- we didn't talk about the subpoena. But she was upset. She said, "I don't want to testify. I know nothing about this. I certainly know nothing about sexual harassment. Why do they want me to testify?"
And I explained to her why they were doing this, and why all these women were on these lists -- and people that they knew good and well had nothing to do with any sexual harassment. I explained to her that it was a political lawsuit. They wanted to get whatever they could under oath that was damaging to me.
And then they wanted to leak it in violation of the judge's orders, and turn up their nose and say, "Well, you can't prove we did it." Now, that was their strategy.
CLINTON: And they were very frustrated because everything they'd leaked so far was old news. So they desperately were trying to validate this massive amount of money they'd spent by finding some new news. And...
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)...
CLINTON: ... she didn't want to be caught up in that and I didn't blame her.
QUESTION: But you were familiar, weren't you, Mr. President, that she had received this subpoena? You've already acknowledged...
CLINTON: Yes, sir. I was.
QUESTION: And Mr. Jordan informed you of that? Is that right?
CLINTON: No, sir. I believe -- and I believe I testified to this in my deposition -- I think the first person who told me that she had been subpoenaed was Bruce Lindsey. I think the first thing -- and I was in this deposition. It's a little bit cloudy. But I was trying to remember who the first person who told me was, because the question was -- again, as I remember -- could we go to that in the deposition, since you asked me that?
QUESTION: Actually, I think you're -- with all respect, I think you may be confusing again Mr. Lindsey's -- perhaps Mr. Lindsey did tell you she was subpoenaed. I don't know. But in your deposition, you were referring to Mr. Lindsey notifying you that she had been identified as a witness.
CLINTON: Where is that, sir? I don't want to get -- I just want to -- what page is that?
QUESTION: Well, actually...
CLINTON: No, it hadn't, because I saw a witness list much earlier than that.
QUESTION: Much earlier than December 28th?
CLINTON: Oh, sure. It had been earlier than -- she -- I believe Monica...
QUESTION: Page 69.
CLINTON: I believe Monica Lewinsky's name was on a witness list earlier than when she was subpoenaed.
QUESTION: Yes.
CLINTON: So I believe, when I was answering this question -- at least I thought I was answering when I found out -- yes, see, there's -- on page 68, "Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you Monica Lewinsky had been served with a subpoena in this case?"
Then I said, "I don't think so." Then I (sic) said, "Did you ever talk to Monica about the possibility that she might be asked to testify in this case?" Then I gave an answer that was nonresponsive that really tried to finish the answer above. And I said, "Bruce Lindsey."
I think Bruce Lindsey told me that she was. I think maybe that's the first person who told me that she was. And I want to be as accurate as I can.
And that -- I believe that Bruce is the first person who told me that Monica had gotten a subpoena.
QUESTION: Did you, in fact, have a conversation with Mr. Jordan on the evening of December 19, 1997, in which he talked to you about Monica being in Mr. Jordan's office, bringing a copy of the subpoena, and being upset about being subpoenaed?
CLINTON: I remember that Mr. Jordan was in the White House, and on December 19th, for an event of some kind. But he came up to the residence floor and told me that he had -- that Monica had gotten the subpoena and that Monica was going to have to testify.
And I think he told me he recommended a lawyer for her. I believe that's what happened. But it was a very brief conversation. He was there for some other reason.
QUESTION: And if Mr. Jordan testified that he had also spoken to you at around 5:00 p.m. -- and the White House phone logs reflect this -- that he called you at around the time he met with Ms. Lewinsky and informed you then that she had been subpoenaed. Is that consistent with your memory? Also on the 19th.
CLINTON: I had a lot of phone conversations with Vernon about this. I didn't keep records of them. I mean, I have some records. My memory is not clear. My testimony on that was not clear.
I just knew that I had talked to Vernon at some time. But I thought that Bruce was the first person who told me.
QUESTION: But Mr. Jordan had also told you? Is that right?
CLINTON: Yes. I now know I had a conversation with Mr. Jordan about it where he said something to me about that.
QUESTION: And that was probably on the 19th. December 19th.
CLINTON: Well, I know I saw him on the 19th, so I'm quite sure. And if he says he talked to me on the 19th, I believe he would have better records and I certainly think he's a truthful person.
QUESTION: Getting back to your meeting with Ms. Lewinsky on December 28th, you are aware that she's been subpoenaed.
QUESTION: You are aware, are you not, Mr. President, that the subpoena called for the production of, among other things, all the gifts that you had given Ms. Lewinsky? You were aware of that on December 28th, weren't you?
CLINTON: I'm not sure, and I understand this is an important question. I did have a conversation with Ms. Lewinsky at some time about gifts, the gifts I'd given her. I do not know whether it occurred on the 28th or whether it occurred earlier. I do not know whether it occurred in person or whether it occurred on the telephone. I have searched my memory for this because I know it's an important issue.
Perhaps if you -- I can tell you what I remember about the conversation and you can see why I'm having trouble placing a date.
QUESTION: Please.
CLINTON: The reason I'm not sure it happened on the 28th is that my recollection is that Ms. Lewinsky said something to me like "What if they ask me about the gifts you've given me?" That's the memory I have. That's why I question whether it happened on the 28th, because she had a subpoena with her, a request for production.
And I told her that if they asked her for gifts, she'd have to give them whatever she had, that that's what the law was.
And let me also tell you, Mr. Bittman, if you go back and look at my testimony here, I actually asked the Jones' lawyers for help on one occasion when they were asking me what gifts I had given her so they could -- I was never hung up about this gift issue. Maybe it's because I have a different experience.
But you know, the president gets hundreds of gifts a year --maybe more. I have always given a lot of gifts to people, especially if they've given me gifts. And this was no big deal to me.
I mean, it's nice, I enjoy it. I gave dozens of personal gifts to people last Christmas. I give gifts to people all the time. Friends of mine give me gifts all the time -- give me ties, give me books, give me other things.
So it was just not a big deal. And I told Ms. Lewinsky that just -- I said, you know, if they ask you for this, you'll have to give them whatever you have.
And I think, Mr. Bittman, it must have happened before then. Either that, or Ms. Lewinsky didn't want to tell me that she had the subpoena, because that was the language I remember her using.
QUESTION: Well, did she tell you, Mr. President, that the subpoena specifically called for a hat pin that you had produced, or that you had given her?
CLINTON: I don't remember that. I remember, sir -- I've told you what I remember. It doesn't mean that my memory is accurate. A lot of things have happened in the last several months. A lot of things were happening then.
But my memory is she asked me a general question about gifts. And my memory is she asked me in the hypothetical. So it's possible that I had a conversation with her before she got a subpoena. Or it's possible she didn't want to tell me that was part of the subpoena. I don't know.
But she may have been worried about this gift business, but it didn't bother me. My experience was totally different.
I told her, I said, look, the way these things work is when a person gets a subpoena, you have to give them whatever you have. That's what the rule -- that's what the law is.
And I -- when I was asked about this in my deposition, even though I was not trying to be helpful, particularly to these people that I thought were not well-motivated or being honest or even lawful in their conduct vis-a-vis me -- that is, the Jones' legal team -- I did ask them specifically to enumerate the gifts. I asked them to help me because I couldn't remember the specifics.
So all I'm saying is, it didn't -- I wasn't troubled by this gift issue.
QUESTION: And your testimony is that Ms. Lewinsky was concerned about her turning over any gifts that you had given her, and that your recommendation to her was, absolutely, Monica, you have to produce everything that I have given you? Is that your testimony?
CLINTON: My testimony is what I have said. And let me reiterate it. I don't want to agree to a characterization of it; I want to just say what it was.
My testimony is that my memory is that on some date in December -- and I'm sorry I don't remember when it was -- she said, well, what if they ask me about the gifts you have given me? And I said, well, if you get a request to produce those, you have to give them whatever you have. And it just -- to me, it -- I didn't then, I don't now see this as a problem.
CLINTON: And if she thought it was a problem, I think it must have been from really a misapprehension of the circumstances. I certainly never encouraged her not to comply lawfully with the subpoena.
QUESTION: Mr. President, if your intent was, as you have earlier testified, you didn't want anyone to know about this relationship you had with Miss Lewinsky, why would you feel comfortable giving her gifts in the middle of discovery in the Paula Jones case?
CLINTON: Well, sir, for one thing, there was no existing improper relationship at that time. I had, for nearly a year, done my best to be a friend to Miss Lewinsky, to be a counselor to her, to give her good advice and to help her.
She had, for her part, most of the time, accepted the changed circumstances. She talked to me a lot about her life, her job ambitions. And she continued to give me gifts.
And I felt that it was the right thing to do to give her gifts back. I have always given a lot of people gifts. I have always been given gifts.
I do not think there is anything improper about a man giving a woman a gift or a woman giving a man a gift, that necessarily connotes an improper relationship. So it didn't bother me. I wasn't -- you know, this was December 28th. I was -- I gave her some gifts. I wasn't worried about it. I thought it was an all right thing to do.
QUESTION: What about notes and letters? Cards, letters and notes to Miss Lewinsky? After this relationship, this intimate, inappropriate, intimate relationship between you and Miss Lewinsky ended, she continued to send you numerous intimate notes and cards. Is that right?
CLINTON: Well, they were -- some of them were somewhat intimate. I'd say most of them -- most of the notes and cards were affectionate, all right. But she had clearly accepted the fact that there could be no contact between us that was in any way inappropriate.
Now, she sent cards sometimes that were just funny, even a little bit off color, but they were funny. She liked to send me cards, and I got a lot of those cards. I have several, anyway. I don't know a lot. I got a few.
QUESTION: She professed her love to you in these cards after the end of the relationship, didn't she?
CLINTON: Well...
QUESTION: She said she loved you.
CLINTON: Sir, the truth is that most of the time, even when she was expressing her feelings for me in affectionate terms, I believe that she had accepted, understood my decision to stop this inappropriate contact. She knew from the very beginning of our relationship that I was apprehensive about it. And I think that in a way she felt a little freer to be affectionate, because she knew that nothing else was going to happen. I can't explain entirely what was in her mind.
But most of these messages were not what you would call over the top. They weren't things that if you read them, you would say, oh my goodness, these people are having some sort of sexual affair.
QUESTION: Mr. President, my question...
CLINTON: But some of them were quite affectionate.
QUESTION: ... my question was, did she or did she not profess her love to you in these cards and letters that she sent to you after the relationship ended?
CLINTON: Most of them were signed "Love," you know, "Love, Monica." I don't know that I would consider -- I don't believe that in most of these cards and letters she professed her love, but she might well have.
I -- but you know, love can mean different things, too, Mr. Bittman. I have -- there are lot of women with whom I have never had any inappropriate conduct, who were friends of mine, who will say from time to time, "I love you." And I know that they don't mean anything wrong by that.
QUESTION: Specifically, Mr. President, do you remember a card she sent you after she saw the movie "Titanic" in which she said that she reminisced or dreamed about that the romantic feelings that occurred in the movie and how that reminded her of you two. Do you remember that?
Continued...
