Monday, September 21, 1998
CLINTON: I know that.
QUESTION: And she expressed that anger to Betty Currie over the telephone, isn't that correct, sir?
CLINTON: That -- Betty told me that.
QUESTION: And she then later expressed her anger to you in one of her telephone conversations with Betty Currie, is that correct?
CLINTON: You mean, did I talk to her on the phone?
QUESTION: Monica Lewinsky that day, before she came in to visit in the White House.
CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, I remember that she came in to visit that day. I remember that she was upset. I don't recall whether I talked to her on the phone before she came in to visit, but I may well have. I'm not denying that I did. I just don't recall that.
QUESTION: And Mrs. Currie and yourself were very irate that Ms. Lewinsky had overheard that you were in the Oval Office with a visitor on that day -- isn't that correct, that you and Mrs. Currie were very irate about that?
CLINTON: Well, I don't remember all that. What I remember is that she was very -- Monica was very upset. She got upset from time to time. And -- and I was, you know -- I couldn't see her. I had --I was doing, as I remember -- I had some other work to do that morning, and she had just sort of showed up and wanted to be let in and wanted to come in at a certain time. And she wanted everything to be that way. And we couldn't see her.
Now, I did arrange to see her later that day. And I was upset about her conduct.
I'm not sure I knew or focused on, at that moment, exactly the question you asked. I remember I was -- I thought her conduct was inappropriate that day.
QUESTION: I want to go back, and I want to take them one at a time.
No. 1, did you find out at some point during that day that Monica had overheard from somebody in the Secret Service that you were meeting with Ms. Mondale and that Monica got very irate about that?
CLINTON: I knew that at some point. I don't know whether I found out that, that day. I knew that they -- I knew that somehow she knew that among -- that -- that Eleanor Mondale was in to see us that day. I knew that. I don't know that I knew how she knew that on that day. I don't remember that.
QUESTION: Pardon me. That leads into my second question, which is, weren't you irate at the Secret Service precisely because they had revealed this information to Ms. Lewinsky on that very day -- so irate that you told several people -- or at least one person -- that somebody should be fired over this, on that very day?
CLINTON: I don't remember whether it happened on that very day. But let me tell you that the uniformed Secret Service -- if that is in fact what happened, and I -- we'll stipulate that that is. But no one should be telling anybody, not anybody -- not a member of my staff --who the president is meeting with. That's an inappropriate thing to do.
So I would think that if that in fact is what I heard when I heard it, I would have thought that was a bad thing. I don't know that I said that. I don't remember what I said, and I don't remember to whom I said it.
QUESTION: It would be an inappropriate thing, sir.
And that leads into my next question, is that why did Mrs. Currie, on your instructions, later that day tell many of the Secret Service officers involved that it never happened, to forget about it?
CLINTON: That what never happened?
QUESTION: The incident that you were so irate about earlier. The incident of somebody disclosing to Mrs. -- to Ms. Lewinsky that Ms. Mondale was in the Oval Office with you.
CLINTON: I don't know the answer to that. I think maybe -- you know -- I don't know. I know that...
QUESTION: You don't recall that you later gave orders to the effect that we're going to pretend this never happened...
CLINTON: No, sir.
QUESTION: ... or something like that?
CLINTON: No, sir. I don't recall that. First of all, I don't recall that I gave orders to fire anybody, if that was the implication of your first statement.
QUESTION: It wasn't an implication. Actually, the question was that you initially wanted somebody fired. You were so mad that you wanted somebody fired.
CLINTON: I don't remember that, first of all. I remember thinking it was an inappropriate thing to do.
And I remember -- as I usually do when I'm mad, I -- after a while, I wasn't so mad about it. And I'm quite aware that Ms. Lewinsky has a way of getting information out of people when she's either charming or determined. And it -- I could have just said, well, I'm not so mad about it anymore.
But I don't remember the whole sequence of events you're talking to me about now, except I do remember that somehow Monica found out Eleanor Mondale was there. And I learned either that day or later that one of the uniformed division personnel had told her. I thought then it was a mistake; I think now it was a mistake.
I'm not sure it's a mistake someone should be terminated over. I think that, you know, you could just tell them not to do that anymore.
QUESTION: In fact, it would kind of be an overreaction to get irate or terminate somebody for revealing to a former White House staffer who visits where the president is, don't you think, sir?
CLINTON: Well, it would depend upon the facts. I think, on the whole, people in the uniformed Secret Service who are working on the gate have no business telling anybody anything about the president's schedule, just as a general principle. I didn't mind anybody knowing that she was there, if that's what you're saying. I could care less about that.
But I think that the schedule itself -- these uniform people --you know, somebody shouldn't just be able to come up on the street, and because they know who the Secret Service agent is, he says who the president's with. I don't think that's proper.
QUESTION: I agree, Mr. President.
CLINTON: But, on the other hand, I didn't -- you know, I wanted to know what happened. I think we found out what happened. And then they were, I think, told not to let it happen again, and I think that's the way it should have been handled. I think it was handled in the appropriate way.
QUESTION: And you have no knowledge of the fact that Secret Service officers were told later in the day something to the effect of "This never happened; this event never happened; you have no knowledge of that"?
CLINTON: Sir, I'm not sure anybody ever told that to me. I mean, I thought you were asking -- let me just say my interpretation of this, of your previous question, was different than what you're asking now.
What I remember was being upset that this matter would be discussed by anybody. It's incidental it happened to be Monica Lewinsky. And that whatever I said, I don't recall, but then thinking that the appropriate thing to do was to say, look, this is not an appropriate thing for you to be talking about, the president's schedule, and it shouldn't happen again.
Now the question you seem to be asking me now -- I just want to be sure I'm getting the right question -- is whether I gave instructions in effect to pretend that Monica Lewinsky was never at the gate.
QUESTION: To the effect of...
CLINTON: And if that is the question you're asking me, I don't believe I ever did that, sir. I certainly have no memory of doing that.
QUESTION: Or anything to that effect?
CLINTON: I don't know what that means.
QUESTION: Is that your testimony?
CLINTON: What does that mean, "anything to that effect"?
QUESTION: Well, Mr. President, you've told us that you were not going to try to help the Jones' attorneys, and I think it's clear from your testimony that you were pretty literal at times. So, that's why I'm saying I don't necessarily know the exact words.
The question was, do you have any knowledge of the fact...
CLINTON: No, but I...
QUESTION: ... of the fact that later in the day, on Saturday, the 6th of December 1997, Secret Service people were then -- were told something to this effect. "This event never happened. Let's just pretend this event did not happen." Do you have knowledge of it or not?
CLINTON: No, sir. And I didn't instruct the Secret Service in that regard.
I have memory of saying anything to anybody in the Secret Service that would have triggered that kind of instruction.
QUESTION: Did you tell Captain Purdy (ph), while you were standing in the doorway between the Oval Office and Betty Currie's office, did you tell Captain Purdy (ph) of the uniform division, "I hope I can count on your discretion in this matter," at the end of the day when you all were talking about that earlier incident? Did you tell him that or anything like that, sir?
CLINTON: I don't remember anything I said to him in that regard. I have no recollection of that whatever.
QUESTION: We'll take a break nor.
KENDALL: Thank you. 3:38.
QUESTION: Mr. President, these next series of questions are from the grand jurors. And let me you tell you that the grand jurors want you to be more specific about the inappropriate conduct.
The first question was -- one of the grand jurors has said that you referred to what you did with Ms. Lewinsky as inappropriate contact. What do you mean by that?
CLINTON: I mean just what I said. But I'd like to ask the grand jury, because I think I have been quite specific and I think I've been willing to answer some specific questions that I haven't been asked yet, but I do not want to discuss something that is intensely painful to me.
This has been tough enough already on me and on my family, although I take responsibility for it. I have no one to blame but myself.
What I meant was, and what they can infer that I meant was, that I did things that were -- when I was alone with her that were inappropriate and wrong, but that they did not include any activity that I -- that was within the definition of sexual relations that I was given by Judge Wright in the deposition.
I said that I did not do those things that were in that -- within that definition and I testified truthfully to that. And that's all I can say about it.
Now, you know, if there's any doubt on the part of the grand jurors about whether I believe some kind of activity falls within that definition or outside that definition, I'd be happy to try to answer that.
QUESTION: Well, I have a question regarding your definition. And my question is, is oral sex performed on you within that definition as you understood it?
CLINTON: As I understood it, it was not, no.
QUESTION: The grand jurors would like to know upon what basis --what legal basis you're declining to answer more specific questions about this. I've mentioned to you that obviously you have privileges -- privileges against self-incrimination. There's no general right not to answer questions. And so one of the questions from the grand jurors is what basis -- what legal basis are you declining to answer these questions?
CLINTON: I'm not trying to evade my legal obligations or my willingness to help the grand jury achieve their legal obligation. As I understand it, you want to examine whether you believe I told the truth in my deposition, whether I asked Ms. Lewinsky not to tell the truth, and whether I did anything else, with evidence or in any other way, that amounted to an obstruction of justice or a subornation of perjury.
And I'm prepared to answer all questions that I -- that the grand jury needs to draw that conclusion.
Now respectfully, I believe the grand jurors can ask me if I believe -- just like that grand juror did -- could ask me, do you believe that this conduct falls within that definition. If it does, then you're free to conclude that my testimony is that I didn't do that. And I believe that you can achieve that without requiring me to say and do things that I don't think are necessary, and that I think, frankly, go too far in trying to criminalize my private life.
QUESTION: If a person touched another person -- you touched another person on the breasts, would that be, in your view, and was it within your view, when you took the deposition, within the definition of sexual relations?
CLINTON: If the person being deposed -- in this case me --directly touched the breasts of another person, with the purpose to arouse or gratify, under that definition, that would be included.
QUESTION: Only directly, sir, or would it be directly or through clothes?
CLINTON: Well, I would -- I think the common-sense definition would be directly. That's how I would infer what it means.
QUESTION: If the person being deposed kissed the breasts of another person, would that be in the definition of sexual relations as you understood it when you were under oath in the Jones case?
Continued...
